Curse

frojack · Feb 26, 2006, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

"And it was upon this day I looked upon myself, and saw that the eight man teams were not the might of eight men, but the strength of few overlapping and compounded. Throwing off the chains of the weak, I stand in synergy with the strong. There are some who call us exploiters, but they are those who fail to see the scope of our capability and might. Where the juggernaut of eight meanders, our dart cuts past."

-Avarre Mnestris, Herald of Lyssa

"There will be no greater defiling of the towers of strength than when the spoils of the strong are thrown to the weak, like the prime meat to a dying dog. This is the shadow of communism"

-Optimus Caliph

Oh bravo Miss Avarre. More beautiful and truer words I have not read for many a moon. For the cold, hustle and bustle of guild wars guru blankets the air, forcing upon the meek a terrible din that will ultimately envelop us all.
You are indeed quite the passionate, pedantic poet.

CyberNigma · Feb 26, 2006, 02:53 AM // 02:53

I think most of the problem is not with the rate of drops (whether it should be scaled or not per party size), but that quite a few people have already realized the drop system is broken. There are explanations on how people have come to realize this in other threads so I'm not going to go and show lists of examples people have posted. I think they can be reached via search.

The point is, players can usually predict which characters (even among their own 4/8) will get the good drops (in and/or out of groups) and who won't over a period of time (one run doesn't mean much as it could be bad luck). The idea is that each character is somehow seeded upon creation and somehow some seeds are worse than others. We already know that the loot system is not purely random by reading the update logs and seeing where they have had to change it occasionally due to uneven/broken distribution. This also leads up to the arguments of some people saying they never get drops at so-and-so and others saying they get them all the time (or evenly distributed over time). Each character is different. People think because they see it as uniformly random, or very non-uniform that everyone sees it that way. Of course these are just theories that are floating around because you can't really prove something that is considered a 'hidden' feature (the loot algorithm). You can't really even report it with any certainty that it'll be taken seriously because they could be looking at it as a run of bad luck. The only reason that the Sorrow's Furnace (evidently it was on a different loot system than the rest of the world) was fixed was because it was so blatantly broken (some would go 100 runs and get nothing while others could get a drop every run or two) that they recognized it.

I think the solution is for them to fix the loot system (or at least acknowledge that they'll look into it and not just ignore it or say that its just bad luck). I don't know of any way to really get their attention on this matter, nor has anyone else I've talked to about it in the forums or the games. Too many people who really are impatient cry wolf for them to believe that there may be a real problem.

I do agree on the side against increasing/decreasing drops based on party size. Have each creature drop one and only one item, regardless of party size. Otherwise, its just contrary to what a normal person would expect. A mob comes and kills a man in a street, his wallet isn't going to multiply based on how many people kill him.

I hope that helps answer why you 'probably' didn't get any shards and the others did, or why you get more shards by 2-manning it. If the loot system is competitive then you may have just been with others with a 'lucky' seed, but 2-man'ed with someone as unlucky as your character is. With only 2 people, it's kind of hard to break the distribution after a point in time because there are only so many ways it can drop.

I don't 2-man anymore. I don't have any fun at it and just accept that I won't get good drops. My suggestion is that if you enjoy it or really want the drops for fow armour or whatever, farm the hell out of it. When they nerf it, farm the hell out of something else solo or 2-man or 5-man. Eventually they'll get the idea.

monty123 · Feb 26, 2006, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dazzen

Well i must admit i'm pretty angry right now because i just came out of fissure with absolutely no shards... once again...

Group was good, 7 serious people knowing what they are doing (1 was a leecher that had the first shard doing nothing and left 1 minute after that). So we went on to clear the forge, then continued for quite a long time and were finally destroyed after 2 more people left. In the 2 and a half hours that this trip took, 11 shards dropped but drop assignment was really bad.

Okay this could be bad luck i know, and i'm trying to convince myself that on the next trip i'll end up with 2-3 because of a sudden karma change ^^ But this has been going on for the last 3 fissure trips i have done (and everytime we cleared at least the forge and 1-2 more quests). In all 3 trips I just stacked one little precious shard.

On the other side i do sometimes (like twice a week) 2man UW and everytime i'm garanteed at least one ecto...

Seriously, i really enjoy playing 8 man teams in these areas because it's how it's meant to play... But i'm pushed to soloing/dual farm to get decent drops.

Please Anet, try to fix this up so i can enjoy playing full team and have good drops at the same time

Dazzen

Just farm UW duo and get an ecto sell than get two shards

Dazzen · Feb 26, 2006, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

The point is, players can usually predict which characters (even among their own 4/8) will get the good drops (in and/or out of groups) and who won't over a period of time (one run doesn't mean much as it could be bad luck). The idea is that each character is somehow seeded upon creation and somehow some seeds are worse than others. We already know that the loot system is not purely random by reading the update logs and seeing where they have had to change it occasionally due to uneven/broken distribution. This also leads up to the arguments of some people saying they never get drops at so-and-so and others saying they get them all the time (or evenly distributed over time). Each character is different. People think because they see it as uniformly random, or very non-uniform that everyone sees it that way. Of course these are just theories that are floating around because you can't really prove something that is considered a 'hidden' feature (the loot algorithm). You can't really even report it with any certainty that it'll be taken seriously because they could be looking at it as a run of bad luck. The only reason that the Sorrow's Furnace (evidently it was on a different loot system than the rest of the world) was fixed was because it was so blatantly broken (some would go 100 runs and get nothing while others could get a drop every run or two) that they recognized it.

Thank you for this post, this is nice infos.

This is exactly my point, if drops would be evenly distributed i wouldn't rant. To counter the flaw in the drop system you have to do 2-3 man farming, which i think is not what anet intends to bring the game to (but again i'm not a dev).

Avare, read what i posted, i never asked for an increase in drops, but a better distribution.

Sagius Truthbarron · Feb 26, 2006, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Oh, an intelligent reply. How excellent.

For your information, the 3man comment was a counter to GWP. Just so you know, none of the builds were made using search, and we don't use a stance tank or bonder. The SS is modded heavily.

Anyways, what I'm also saying is it takes less skill to heal 1 man than 6, yup. But why are you healing 6? Because you tank can't hold aggro, your casters are breaking it. If your team is clearly not co-ordinated or functional in that way, why should you get the same loot as those who can? That's like saying every time you enter Heroes' Ascent, you should just get to open a HoH chest after fighting Zaishen.

We don't need to optimize to get drops. We can, and we enjoy playing in a small team group. Also, my main character is a mesmer that I mainly play in PuG groups, and if im grouping and playing for fun, why should I care for drops? In my experience, for every trip where I get no shards and others get several, there's one where I get 3-4. It all balances over time, see.

Octupling the drops for an eight man team, merely because you don't always get drops is petty, selfish, would send all the prices into the pit, and people would still make big teams that can't do anything but hide behind book. This degrades the quality of PuGs. If you're really grouping large for fun, why do you care about drops?

I'm not trolling, but so long as Sagius Truthbarron is tossing out quotes, I'd prefer to reply to them as such

While an 8 man team may not be backbreaking labor, you do have to put up with all the idiots and random leavers that come with it. That feat alone should demand extra drops.

Why do you think GvG gives more faction than any other form of PvP? ANet says it was becuase GvG takes the largest ammount of coordination.

How much coordination do you need for these precious 3 man teams? "Ok, bonder, you cast these spells and stand back. Tank/55 monk, whatever, take damage and hit your skills. SS necro, you cast SS."

There's nothing hard or skilled about the use of these internet template builds.

Avarre · Feb 26, 2006, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Avare, read what i posted, i never asked for an increase in drops, but a better distribution.

Was referring to

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

This would never happen if in higher level areas like FoW/UW the drop allocation was proportional to number of players in the party that you have i.e. if you have 6 people you have 6 times normal drop rate, 3 people = 3 times drop rate, solo = 1x drop rate.

..that.

Quote:

There's nothing hard or skilled about the use of these internet template builds

I'm sorry, you're right of course. I'll expect your 3man clearing screenshots tomorrow. Shouldn't take long, no skill required right?

And once again, we don't use a bonder

Lady Lozza · Feb 26, 2006, 05:37 AM // 05:37

LOL I just came out of FoW. 0 shards, 0 golds, 0 dyes.
We had 20 shards drop, 11 golds, 9 dyes and a 5 man team. And I got none of it. It always happens that someone in the team gets BAD drops. Sometimes it will be you, sometimes it won't.

Bio-Flame · Feb 26, 2006, 06:09 AM // 06:09

I think that some people forget that this is a MMO. As in Multi-player. Well, Anet calls it "CRPG" but it's still a game that's played on-line with lots of other people.

PvE is meant to be played with a party of other humans. If not you wouldn't need a internet conection.

In that sense I think it is only fair that teams with more players should get rewarded somehow (either my loot increase or better xp or whatever other reward one might find appropriate).
I must emphasize this: there should be a reward for playing on a team (the more players the higher/better the reward). I am not saying what the reward should be - it could be a lot of different things - but there ought to be one.

Of course the reward shouldn't be so much better than soloing.... that would gimp the poor player who likes to solo. Of course not, that should be taken into account naturally.
But one has only to think on solo/dual runs vs team runs to realize that currently the game rewards soloing/dual runs over teamwork.
Ask yourself: why do people farm the SF with 5 people and not 6 nor 7 nor 8?
Why do people farm the UW with 2-man teams?
Why did Anet nerf AoEs to make soloing UW impossible (or tedious)?

Currently, the less people there are in the team the more chance you have to get that precious loot.
What most people don't realize is that this isn't the only way to do things.
There's lots of other ways to improve teamplay and promote teamwork.

For example, in some games (CoH/CoV comes to mind), you get a slight boost on XP for each party member above 4 in the team. Not only that but the 7th and 8th members increase the xp slightly more than the 4th, 5th and 6h (that is, it's not a linear curve).
THe philosophy being this idea? Rewarding team play (since these games are MMOs and require teamwork) and rewarding teams with LOTS of players (8 is the max, like in GWs).
Otherwise purely XP-wise, the team would be "gimping" their XP for each member they'd invited.
Of course, in "pure XP/hour" you'd still be better off soloing than on a team..... but at least this system prevents soloing to have "UBERLY" more xp than a team. It helps to balance things up.

Back to GWs:
I am not trying to say that it should be better to go to the UW on a team rather than soloing (nor vice-versa).
My point is that it shouldn't be SO MUCH BETTER soloing/dualing the UW rather than going with a full 8-man team.
I think that's the issue Anet should try to fix - either by increasing drops, or fixing the loot system or any other solution they might find reasonable.

I mean, I think it's pretty obvious for everyone that 2-man teams farming the UW are soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much better than 8-man teams.
It shouldn't be so.... unbalanced,imo.

Sagius Truthbarron · Feb 26, 2006, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I'm sorry, you're right of course. I'll expect your 3man clearing screenshots tomorrow. Shouldn't take long, no skill required right?

How many times times have you completely cleared UW/FoW with 8 people (with not one leaver)? I think screenshots of that would be worth more than 3 people with alot more time on their hands running standard farming builds.

And yeah, the only PvE character I have is a N/mo and hes not Spiteful Spirit. (I don't farm)

Edit: And by 'skill' I meant exceptional. You seem to think you are the king/queen of the pride becuase you can run SS. Many people do it.

Fantus · Feb 26, 2006, 08:59 AM // 08:59

The main problem is like this:

a) People solo farm because they want to get better drops or because they like it (it's not important why they do it, just THAT they do it).
b) Solo farmers get more drops because they don't have to share drops
c) More items and gold are influxing into the economy, some people get rich in the process and the general price level declines.
d) Anet doesn't like c)
e) To "rebalance" the economy, Anet nerfs the drop rates, so solo farmers get less items
f) Solo farmers get less items than before. TEAM players get even more hit by the drop rate nerf, since they still get only 1/8 of the drops a solo player gets. If solo farmers get puny drops now, a team player get Puny/8 drops now, which in practice equals nothing. A small number divided by 8 is a good approximation to zero.
g) Since this fact is well know, even MORE people will start solo farming so that they can get at least SOMETHING.
h) GOTO C

Like a month before I did numerous 8 people runs to both FoW and UW. We cleared out a solid part of these areas each time (like 60%+ or so, before enough people dropped out to make the run stop...). It were like 20 runs in total during like 2 weeks.

My results:
Obsidian Shards: 0
Ecto: 0
Rare items: 3 (2 of them were actually nice)

Yes, you've read that correctly. Some 20 runs did NOT return ANY shards or Ecto.

I did those runs for pure enjoyment since I already have an FoW armor. If ANYONE goes down there because of the drops, they will get bitterly disappointed - and probably switch to solo/dual farming.

Later, I did some dual runs to UW - I got like 1.5 Ecto per run.

Is this really what Anet wants? Forcing people to use reduced team sizes when they want to get certain drops? Nerfing drop rates does exactly that.

The drops rates are ok - for solo/dual farmers. The nerfing of drop rates made them unbearable for team players (which is why I consider it the dumbest thing Anet ever did to GW).

Conclusion: Making drop rates dependent on team size would solve that problem. Solo players could still solo and team players would get properly rewarded as well. Everyone could still play their favored way - being solo or team oriented. Which would be a good thing.

Tarkin · Feb 26, 2006, 10:42 AM // 10:42

The point is Fow armor = 105 ectos + 105 shards...
In a normal party u will have a drop rate of 1 glob by run (if lucky?), in a 2 hours run (if lucky?)... well we have 105 day no stop playing... just to take ectos... for a "normal" player, 3 mounths playing the same boring place just to take ectos to get fashion armor? Give me a break... increase drops rates of ectos for large partys and thats all...

CyberNigma · Feb 26, 2006, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bio-Flame

PvE is meant to be played with a party of other humans. If not you wouldn't need a internet conection.

In that sense I think it is only fair that teams with more players should get rewarded somehow (either my loot increase or better xp or whatever other reward one might find appropriate).
I must emphasize this: there should be a reward for playing on a team (the more players the higher/better the reward). I am not saying what the reward should be - it could be a lot of different things - but there ought to be one.

Well, for one, either you are wrong or ArenaNet has been BS'ing people (I suspect ArenaNet is correct). This game is about single and multi-player gaming.
According to their FAQ:

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuildWars FAQ

http://www.guildwars.com/aboutgw/faq/

What kind of game is Guild Wars?

Guild Wars is a global online roleplaying game. Players can engage in cooperative group combat, in single player adventures, or in large head-to-head guild battles. Guild Wars is a mission-based game set in a stunning 3D fantasy world that offers excellent support for guilds. Because the team that developed Guild Wars had experience creating successful online game series such as Warcraft, StarCraft and Diablo, the members used their familiarity with the complex issues surrounding online games to create a game that is both easy to learn and compelling to play long term, and yet does not require players to spend hundreds of hours slogging through the preparation just to get to the fun bits.

Do you have to be in a guild to play Guild Wars?

Membership in a guild is not required to play Guild Wars. Although there are many positive aspects to belonging to a guild, players have access to a wide variety of solo adventuring possibilities as well as team cooperative and competitive missions that will ensure you of many of those gaming sessions that run into the wee hours, no matter your playing style. Missions will come in all sizes and difficulties and can be joined individually, as part of a one-time team or as a member of a full-fledged guild.

This comes up quite a bit. Most people explain away their version of what they think Guild Wars is. Some of us bought it so that we could have both friend-time and solo-time. Sometimes we like to get together and brag about our adventures/conquests/loot. Sometimes we like to help each other out. Sometimes we go on cooperative 'hunts' together. However, there is also time that we just go our own ways and do our own things (kill shit for stress relief, hunt things and get loot for bragging rights, etc etc). I think the problem you are talking about is being addressed in the wrong way. The loot is not the problem (pre-millionth nerf). The problem is not that a group/team should get more xp/loot than a solo'er. The problem is the fact that the solo'er has the capability to do the same as the team. Obviously, this issue involves combinations of skills vs beasties that the developers never thought of. It's creative from the players stand-point (the original ones to do it, not the million copy-catters), but presents problems.

ArenaNet's methods of 'fixing' the problem so far have been wrong. Changing the drop rates in any way is useless because the percentages are still going to be there. Solo'ers will still get the same percentage of drops as before, it's just that the total pool will be less. Don't blame them too harshly, as I imagine they are still learning from their Diablo II fiasco. The problem can only be fixed by correcting the skills. People should be allowed to solo and if they are an uber-skilled player then maybe they can do tough areas by themselves. Having said that, they should be able to do it because they are better than everyone else, not because a particular skill combo brings the difficulty down a notch. I've been 55'ing myself quite a bit before I got bored with it (really dull). It's not easy at all to do. However, its not as uber-hard as some people will make it out to be either. Increasing and decreasing drop rates will not ever solve this problem.

BTW, taking a 2-man/3-man all the way through UW, like a few have with 3/4-man I believe it was, is no doubt extremely tough and uber (I have no doubt that I will fail if I tried). However, remember that clearing UW is not required in order to farm it. The beginning areas where ecto is farmed is nowhere even near uber (nor, I imagine, as exciting).

P.S. I think it'd also help if they fixed the loot system in the first place.

Tarkin · Feb 26, 2006, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

The main problem is like this:

a) People solo farm because they want to get better drops or because they like it (it's not important why they do it, just THAT they do it).
b) Solo farmers get more drops because they don't have to share drops
c) More items and gold are influxing into the economy, some people get rich in the process and the general price level declines.
d) Anet doesn't like c)
e) To "rebalance" the economy, Anet nerfs the drop rates, so solo farmers get less items
f) Solo farmers get less items than before. TEAM players get even more hit by the drop rate nerf, since they still get only 1/8 of the drops a solo player gets. If solo farmers get puny drops now, a team player get Puny/8 drops now, which in practice equals nothing. A small number divided by 8 is a good approximation to zero.
g) Since this fact is well know, even MORE people will start solo farming so that they can get at least SOMETHING.
h) GOTO C

Like a month before I did numerous 8 people runs to both FoW and UW. We cleared out a solid part of these areas each time (like 60%+ or so, before enough people dropped out to make the run stop...). It were like 20 runs in total during like 2 weeks.

My results:
Obsidian Shards: 0
Ecto: 0
Rare items: 3 (2 of them were actually nice)

Yes, you've read that correctly. Some 20 runs did NOT return ANY shards or Ecto.

I did those runs for pure enjoyment since I already have an FoW armor. If ANYONE goes down there because of the drops, they will get bitterly disappointed - and probably switch to solo/dual farming.

Later, I did some dual runs to UW - I got like 1.5 Ecto per run.

Is this really what Anet wants? Forcing people to use reduced team sizes when they want to get certain drops? Nerfing drop rates does exactly that.

The drops rates are ok - for solo/dual farmers. The nerfing of drop rates made them unbearable for team players (which is why I consider it the dumbest thing Anet ever did to GW).

Conclusion: Making drop rates dependent on team size would solve that problem. Solo players could still solo and team players would get properly rewarded as well. Everyone could still play their favored way - being solo or team oriented. Which would be a good thing.

AGREE, but i think increase drops from >>>large partys<<<, but let a good drop rate for solo, because if u have the ability, if u have the skills and dont whant play with "noobs" u have the right from make it alone if u can... and get a big reward from it...

Bio-Flame · Feb 26, 2006, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

The problem is not that a group/team should get more xp/loot than a solo'er

There is where I think you're ABSOLUTELY wrong!
Hear me out:

A team MUST get more XP than a "solo team" (1 man team) because that XP gets DIVIDED equally between players in the party....thus every single player in the party will get a LOT less xp than the soloer.
Do you get my point?
It's like, you kill a mob for 100Xp... fine. A soloer will kill the mob and get 100xp.
Now, a full 8-man team will also kill the mob...for 100xp DIVIDED by 8 (xp gets divided equally between the party members). That's around 12,5xp only!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Basically the full 8-man team players is only getting 12,5 xp, or in other words 8 times less XP than the "solo team"player!

That's my point. I am not saying that the 8-man team should get more xp than the soloer. Not at all.
But you must agree that getting 8 times less xp than the solo player is a HUUUUUUUUUUGE inbalance!
Now, replace the xp for loot (ectos, shards and goldies) and you'll see how inbalanced GWs currently is. Yep, loot also gets "divided" by 8 too....

Why not give a slight boost to the team's xp/drops so that while it won't be better overall than the solo player, it might help balance things out.
The main reason for this line of thought? Trying to encourage people to playing teams again.

As things stand now, I/anyone has the ability to dual-farm the UW, solo-farm FoW for Shards and farm SF with a 4-man team.
I/anoyne can farm gold solo, I/anyone can also farm for gold items solo.
Why in hell should anyone play on a team then????
"For fun" most people reply. True enough and that's what I do.
But why should the solo behaviour be rewarded on an online Role-playing game, MMO or CPRG or whatever they want to call it??
If we shouldn't be playing on teams the game might as well have been a single player game without internet connection,right?

I think that in the end, there's a lot of different attitutes and "gaming-philosophies" that the Devs can have.
What I am trying to say is that rewarding solo play over team play with such an in-game inbalance as GWs currently has is not the only way to go.

For the record, I have a 55hp-monk too, and a solo farmer and a solo mesmer farmer (SF) so I know how things go one way and the other.

Evan The Cursed · Feb 26, 2006, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

This would never happen if in higher level areas like FoW/UW the drop allocation was proportional to number of players in the party that you have i.e. if you have 6 people you have 6 times normal drop rate, 3 people = 3 times drop rate, solo = 1x drop rate.

To a lesser extent I agree, but I've always thought that monster spawns and drop rates should co-incide with party size. But not directly.

More like, if you bring 8 party members you get full mob spawns and full drop rate. You bring two guys, you get half the mob spawns (instead of 1/4) and only a slightly higher drop rate.

Something like that, where bringing big parties to early missions is p enalized by more difficult enemies, but bringing small parties to later missions is not nearly as "penalized".

I'm not making myself clear, am I? Bah, forget it.